Wishful thinking didn't create the 'idea' of God, nor of an 'afterlife'. God is, and He makes it easy for those He has chosen to have Faith. He also made it impossible for those He has NOT chosen to have or understand that Faith.
Wishful thinking didn't set apart a people group (Jews).
I've said it before-if you want evidence that God exists, look to the Jews. In no other part of the world, ever (!) has a family group been kept separate from the rest of the world, no matter where they are living.
More evidence of God: the hatred FOR the Jews exhibited nearly universally. If they were merely a mid-eastern family group, no one would even know the difference between a Jew and an Arab.
Back to Carl. He was the one invested in wishful thinking. With a wave of his hand he dismissed six thousand years of history as "ancient traditions". In effect, he was relegating God to the status of 'Myth'.
Why? Simply because he didn't know God. His wishful thinking was that MAN was preeminent.
He might have suggested that he could not have faith in a God he couldn't see-but why would he have any faith at all in the sinful, corrupt MAN that he could see?
A side note-it was very sad to hear of the passing of Whitney Houston today. She had a tough life. I don't know if she was a Christian-growing up in church doesn't get you into Heaven. But I know that tough times usually drive someone to seek help, it causes many to reach out for God, and perhaps I'll see her in Heaven. I hope so.
25 comments:
About the title of the post-
King James Bible
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 5:20
Sin may be exhibited everywhere, but God's Grace is greater than sin.
If this were not true, there would be NO hope for anyone.
Even that quote from nice guy Carl Sagan is sinful in it's sad way.
If Carl had known even a moment of the Faith I've cherished in my lifetime...he would have believed as I do. That's what God does to a person.
Is it a person's fault if they don't know God?
I'm seriously asking. It's a question that's been debated for at least six thousand years.
Hello Lu-'fault' is indeed a question hard to answer if one does not accept that God is Sovereign.
Meaning that if He chooses to save one person (A)and chooses not to save another person (B)...that is His Sovereign choice.
Both (A) and (B) are sinners. Neither is good enough for Heaven.
Reading the first chapter of Romans makes clear that all have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God.
Here's where God is Sovereign also-He allows some of His created peoples of their own free will to reject Him. That is as hard for me to get my head around as it may be for you. I don't have all of the answers, but I trust that God will do what He will do whether I understand or don't.
I hope that helps a bit-I'm on my way to work, so adioski for now.
Thought you would appreciate this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piSZRKQubUU
What a divine talent we've lost.
Thanks for that, James-I listened to her first album last night at work, the only one I have of her on my iPod.
She was talented, indeed.
If B is not saved, is that because God chooses not to save that person or because B chooses to reject God? You've rebuked me in the past for "rejecting God," but you've also written that if God chooses not to save someone, that person can do nothing to change that.
One way of resolving this riddle is to say that every person has a choice to accept or reject God, and just because God knows eternally (because for God every moment is eternally present) what that choice is/has been/will be does not make it any less a free choice.
Because some of the things you've written sound as though you think it's God's choice alone, I'm curious as to your thoughts on this.
Lu, if you think I ever 'rebuked' you for rejecting God, please forgive me-I know that I have written that I hope that you (and everyone else) will be saved.
To be clear: God does the choosing.
He didn't choose me because I am so lovable. I am a sinner saved by Grace, meaning that I don't deserve Heaven.
I'm sure that you might have heard of the acronym "Tulip"
"Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
Most non-Christians (and a few confused Christians) have issues with parts of TULIP, but the "I" stands for Irresistible Grace-I couldn't say no to God, and wouldn't want to.
Unconditional Election means that Salvation is Salvation pure and simple-no working your way to Heaven, no paying more for your sins (Hello, Catholicism!) than what Christ paid on the cross.
Before I became a Christian I struggled with the idea of God, and I was sure that I wouldn't be saved. My perspective was limited by what I could know.
God is unlimited with regard to His perspective, and not only did He know when and where I would be 'saved' but He knew before I was even born that I would one day be writing this sentence.
He knows to the millisecond when I will die. He knows the number of hairs on my head. I didn't choose Him-He chose me, and He continues to choose millions of people each year.
Because a person lacks that faith today doesn't mean that God won't give Grace tomorrow-as long as there is life there is Hope. I can only tell you that the past 30+ years I've been a Christian have been hard/wonderful/troubled/full of Grace. And I wouldn't change a thing.
Naptime for Doug-I work midnights now, so I'm off schedule from most of the rest of the world.
Interesting. I have trouble with total depravity, as you know. Pervasive depravity, yes, in the sense that depravity lives within me at all times and will take over if I give it free rein -- but not total, because I don't.
I'll agree that I haven't done anything to deserve eternal bliss, but I don't deserve eternal torment, either, and, as I've said before, I don't think anyone does. I work, I cook dinner, I do dishes and laundry, I spend time with my family, I knit for myself and for charity, I spend too much time on the computer and not enough for the benefit of mankind. And for that I deserve to burn forever? (I'm begging the question here of whether hell is eternal torment, but that's how most people define it.)
I know your answer: God thinks so, and therefore it is so, and it's right even though our tiny depraved minds can't comprehend it. I don't buy that either. How can you say God is good if you can't comprehend what good is?
"How can you say God is good if you can't comprehend what good is?"
How can you judge whether God is right or wrong in doing as He sees fit?
Our tiny depraved minds may not be able to comprehend God, Lu, but our tinier depraved hearts are where God has written His moral Law so that we know right from wrong, good from evil. And it is in our hearts (our innermost beings) that Faith resides.
A very Calvinist answer.
I think I've written before here that I believe (normal) humans are hard-wired for both survival and empathy, and that sets up the eternal struggle within us between good and evil. When a child of three or four acts selfishly, say by snatching a toy away from a friend, how do we correct her? We say, "If you want your friends to share with you, you have to share with them." In other words, we invoke the Golden Rule (which btw has been around in some form for at least 2500 years). We don't have to teach her so much as remind her of it, and it doesn't matter if we're raising her as a Christian, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, or in no faith at all: she still gets what we're saying.
And so it is ever afterward. Later we may ask, "How would you feel if your friend did that to you?" and the miscreant hates that far more than a spanking or timeout, because she knows. That same knowledge will also motivate her to do good things without expecting any reward.
I have a feeling that where that knowledge comes from is yet another thing we'll get nowhere arguing about. So I'll ask another question, and again I have no agenda here, I really want to know: obviously people who don't share your faith do good things all the time, all the way from Mother Teresa's decades of dedication to my giving a small sum to feed the poor. How does a Calvinist explain that? How can a totally depraved person still want to do good?
Hi Lu-"people who don't share your faith do good things all the time, all the way from Mother Teresa's decades of dedication to my giving a small sum to feed the poor. How does a Calvinist explain that? How can a totally depraved person still want to do good?"
You might know exactly what I am going to write-but here I go.
Of course we all 'want to do good'.
We are made in the image of God, which is how we know good from evil. The Bible says that He wrote His morals on our hearts-thus we are MADE moral creatures.
But ours is a marred image, due to sin (which you and I might not agree exists).
While we want to do good, and nearly everyone does at least some good...due to sin our idea of what is good or evil can get twisted up.
Hitler was a dog lover-he adored his dogs, and I believe he shot them just before killing himself.
He may have thought that he was doing a great good by attempting to exterminate Jews and others whom he felt were less than the Aryan ideal.
"Can a totally depraved person still want to do good?"
Total depravity in the Calvinist context means that we recognize that we are totally incapable of 'saving' ourselves. We are dependent on the saving Grace of God to have any hope of Salvation.
Mother Teresa...did indeed help many people, gave her life to helping the poor. But her service did not earn her a pass to Heaven when she died.
Another example-Fred is a womanizing cheating drunk...firefighter.
He loses his life in a fire while saving two children. His selfless final act would not grant him Heaven.
I try to do good every day, but my average is about the same as anyone else's.
One of the atheist mantras is that they claim to do/be good without having to be guilted into behaving-they are good for goodness sake, so to speak.
I say that they are good because God (Whom they don't believe in) wrote His laws on their hearts. Just like the rest of us, they are often 'bad' for badness sake, but they won't pop up on Reddit's r/atheist channel proclaiming that.
Lu, remember that I am not calling you an atheist-I know better. But if you go to redditdotcom and click on the word 'atheist' at the top of the page you might find some interesting posts.
Then think about the fact that each poster there is smug about something that he or she doesn't believe exists. That would be like me feeling morally superior to the 'Flying spaghetti monster'.
My question had nothing to do with how anyone gets to heaven (which, as you know, I don't believe exists, but leave that aside).
I do believe in sin, that is I believe that a moral law exists that we all know we should obey and don't always. I define sin as straying from the right path. Convincing ourselves (to some extent and for some time) and trying to convince others that we're on the right path when we're not is a meta-sin, if you like. In my experience I often act from a mixture of motives, and when I do I usually tell myself I'm acting on the best one; sometimes I can fool myself for quite a while. (I don't mean that I tell myself I'm doing a good thing when it's really a bad one, though I've done that too, but it's usually pretty easy to see through that one. I'm talking about cases where both good and bad motives are real, but I fail to acknowledge the bad ones. Real-life example: I avoid confronting a friend about badmouthing me to a mutual friend, and I tell myself, truthfully, that it's because I'm grateful for favors she's done me; but I'm also depriving her of a fight whose drama I know she's craving, and mostly I'm a huge wimp about confrontation.) Was Hitler lying to himself as well as everyone else? We'll never know, but it seems to me a common, maybe universal, human failing (though fortunately most of us, being good people, don't take it to such extremes).
I think everyone is both good and bad because both good motives (empathy, love) and bad ones (survival, greed) are hard-wired into us. We all do good for goodness' sake, that is without expecting any reward (Eph. 2:10), whether we're Christians or atheists or something else. I don't honestly see a difference between Christians and the rest of us here, though we may call things by different names.
You yourself (among many, many others) have written that atheists have no moral compass, no rules, no conscience. The atheists I know are, if anything, more moral than average, and they certainly know right from wrong. Some of them tend to be a little defensive and prickly, but you would be too if you were constantly being told you were a sociopath.
"You yourself (among many, many others) have written that atheists have no moral compass, no rules, no conscience."
Not true, Lu-how many times have I written recently about God writing His laws on our hearts? That includes ALL of us.
What I have said is that the atheist rejects God, and wants to believe that he or she is good or bad or wonderful according to their own lights, their own faith in themselves.
THAT is misplaced faith.
What does the atheist say when confronted with the Gospel, when told that they must respect God Who is Sovereign?
"YOU may be chained to some idea of God, but I am Free of such nonsense!"
Or, as they say in Psalm 2:1-3
"1 Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His £Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!”
If your moral compass points left instead of towards God, if
your selfmade rules leave God out of the equation, if your conscience tells you that you are a supreme being...God help you.
Well, you have written that atheists lack a moral compass, but not recently. I am too slothful to look it up.
And here we go with the "rejecting God" thing again. You have written very recently that God does the saving or rejecting, so how can you fault any human being for it?
If I read you right, you accuse atheists of the sin of pride, of taking credit for what God gave them and setting themselves up in God's place. And I'll grant you that atheists do this, because we all do, at some time, in some way. But you're assuming that every atheist has an unsubmitted will, and that's not true in my experience. Atheists (again like all of us) are subject to empathy, to morality, that's the Golden Rule again, to reality, to the law. They don't refuse to subject themselves to God out of hubris; they find themselves unable to believe in God because as far as they can tell God doesn't exist. (Even, in some cases, after a Christian upbringing.) Do you believe in the Easter Bunny, or in fairies?
"and that's not true in my experience. Atheists (again like all of us) are subject to empathy, to morality, that's the Golden Rule again, to reality, to the law. They don't refuse to subject themselves to God out of hubris; they find themselves unable to believe in God because as far as they can tell God doesn't exist. (Even, in some cases, after a Christian upbringing.) Do you believe in the Easter Bunny, or in fairies?"
Lu, in the past I've pointed you towards the book of Romans, especially chapter one. Please give that a look over, and you might understand a little better about why I continue to say that those who do not know God cannot claim innocence, that they are somehow able to find a loophole in the Bible where they are righteous.
Here, I will say it again: God chooses whom He will to save or not save.
Those whom He chooses to save are just as guilty, just as sinful as any atheist shaking his fist at a God in whom he doesn't believe.
The difference between these two sets of sinners is God gives His Grace AND faith to believe to those whom He chooses to save.
I didn't 'earn' my salvation through being holy because I am not holy (OR holier-than-thou).
but God is Holy, and He sets the rules, like it or not, and He saves some and not others, like it or not.
I don't like it myself in this way, Lu: I would love to see hell empty and Heaven full, meaning I wish that there were no such thing as sin, wish that we didn't live in a corrupted world in need of redemption. But we do, and God does what He wants.
by the bye, I hate Easter, and the easter bunny. Pagan rituals/myths which had forced their way into cultural Christianity. "Easter" is mentioned in the King James Version, but in better translations it is replaced by "Passover".
Fairies? Nope. But I do enjoy watching "Destination Truth" which has yet to find a verifiable ANYTHING. They had an episode down in Antarctica which looked awesome on my big screen.
"and that's not true in my experience. Atheists (again like all of us) are subject to empathy, to morality, that's the Golden Rule again, to reality, to the law. They don't refuse to subject themselves to God out of hubris; they find themselves unable to believe in God because as far as they can tell God doesn't exist. (Even, in some cases, after a Christian upbringing.) Do you believe in the Easter Bunny, or in fairies?"
Lu, in the past I've pointed you towards the book of Romans, especially chapter one. Please give that a look over, and you might understand a little better about why I continue to say that those who do not know God cannot claim innocence, that they are somehow able to find a loophole in the Bible where they are righteous.
Here, I will say it again: God chooses whom He will to save or not save.
Those whom He chooses to save are just as guilty, just as sinful as any atheist shaking his fist at a God in whom he doesn't believe.
The difference between these two sets of sinners is God gives His Grace AND faith to believe to those whom He chooses to save.
I didn't 'earn' my salvation through being holy because I am not holy (OR holier-than-thou).
but God is Holy, and He sets the rules, like it or not, and He saves some and not others, like it or not.
I don't like it myself in this way, Lu: I would love to see hell empty and Heaven full, meaning I wish that there were no such thing as sin, wish that we didn't live in a corrupted world in need of redemption. But we do, and God does what He wants.
by the bye, I hate Easter, and the easter bunny. Pagan rituals/myths which had forced their way into cultural Christianity. "Easter" is mentioned in the King James Version, but in better translations it is replaced by "Passover".
Fairies? Nope. But I do enjoy watching "Destination Truth" which has yet to find a verifiable ANYTHING. They had an episode down in Antarctica which looked awesome on my big screen.
Like this? "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
But they are not clearly seen, not by me nor by my husband nor by many friends and relatives. If they were, we'd have no trouble believing. Predestination is an invention of people who needed an explanation for the fact that so many didn't believe as they did.
As for the tirade about unbelievers' turning to homosexuality, it reads very much like "your mother wears combat boots."
So very close, Lu-"have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
As much as you may protest that you see nothing of God in 'what has been made'...the very breath in your body which you use to protest is a gift from God.
If you stand on the ground, whether you agree or not, God made that ground which you reject as 'proof'.
Lu, your very arguing against Scripture is in line with Scripture:
"18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1 Cor 1:18-25
You are trying to have it both ways, I think. Either everyone has a choice, or God makes the choice for us. If God makes the choice for us, you can't condemn those of us who don't believe.
Those whom He chooses to save are just as guilty, just as sinful as any atheist shaking his fist at a God in whom he doesn't believe.
The difference between these two sets of sinners is God gives His Grace AND faith to believe to those whom He chooses to save.
So here we are, all of us, walking around, all equally guilty and sinful, all morally the same in the eyes of God, and God just arbitrarily decides, "Doug, you will dwell in eternal bliss, but, Lucia, you are consigned to eternal torment. Mother Teresa, you're with Lucia, you said the wrong words when you laid your work on the altar." That is not fair, or right, or just; it sure isn't merciful. I would take my own understanding of right and wrong over that any day.
(Fwiw, as I've said before, most Christians of my acquaintance don't understand God or salvation this way, and if there is a God, I don't believe God operates this way.)
Lu, who is trying to have it both ways?
"If God makes the choice for us, you can't condemn those of us who don't believe." I don't condemn anyone-that's up to the same God Who created the universe we exist in.
You can not wish away God simply because you don't agree with Him.
Your belief, Lu, seems to be based on the idea that we are all saints-that humanity is too inherently good to be punished by God. In your view, none of us deserve hell.
Do you see why there is such a difference between what we believe?
I think that we are all sinners, and that it is a blessing that ANY of us are saved.
You won't understand that,and I know that I cannot convince you.
As for 'most Christians' of your acquaintance who do not understand God or Salvation as I do...
If you are not a Christian, Lu, how do you feel qualified to discern their Faith? I would not be willing to judge between Muslims as to which one is being more 'faithful' to his or her beliefs. I can't judge that from the outside.
But I do have a lifetime of knowing many Christians who believe exactly as I do.
I have more in common with a Chinese underground church pastor than I do with my own family, in which I am the only Christian.
Look for a new post fleshing this out.
You don't like the word condemn? All right, you can't blame those who don't believe, you can't hold them accountable for not believing. You know very well what I'm saying.
I don't know what you think hell is. If hell is eternal torment, I don't think anyone deserves that. Once again I ask you, since you call yourself a sinner as deserving of hell as anyone: what have you ever done that is that bad? Since you say God has written God's moral law on your heart, and you have accepted God, surely you know?
Most Christians whom I know believe that everyone freely chooses whether to believe or not, and God doesn't control that decision, but (since for God all points in time are eternally present) always knows what our choice will be. This gets God off the hook for condemning the vast majority of humanity, because under this theological construct God doesn't condemn anyone, we condemn ourselves. (I take issue with this model as well, but my point is that the doctrine of human free will is a mainstream Christian one.)
"Most Christians whom I know believe"
stopping you right there, Lu-I would no more accept your opinion of "Christians" and what they believe than you would accept what I say about President Obama-being defined by our opponents? Not allowed. Being defined by my sins? As in, "since you call yourself a sinner as deserving of hell as anyone: what have you ever done that is that bad?"
Believe me, Lu-sin is sin, and I am indeed a sinner saved by Grace. As it says in Romans, 'All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God'.
Emphasis on all. My particular sins which have been forgiven are already forgotten by God, so I do not 'air' them merely to make a point.
"Christians whom I know believe that everyone freely chooses whether to believe or not, and God doesn't control that decision,"
Not to denigrate your perception of what those Christians allege to believe, but all through Scripture we learn that God is in control of every molecule of existence, that He is behind EVERYTHING that we can see, touch, feel etc.
A God who doesn't control every decision made would be a paper god incapable of saving anyone.
I admit that there are some alleged Christians out there who hold on to bad theology, but true Christians keep doctrinally pure as mach as we can.
Please, go ahead and print this out and show it to your Christian friends-ask them if God is in control of every moment of our lives. If they so 'No'...run.
If God controls every moment of your life, do you have free will?
To quote C.S. Lewis: "Merely to override a human will... would be for Him useless.... He wants them to walk and must therefore take away his hand; and if only the will to walk is really there, He is pleased even with their stumbles. Do not be deceived.... [Satan's] cause is never more in danger than when a human, no longer desiring, but still intending, to do [God's] will, looks around on a universe from which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys."
I'm not holding up Lewis (or anyone else, and certainly not myself) as an authority on Christian theology. (It so happens that I've read more Lewis than any other Christian theologian, so the above quote came readily to mind.) But I do understand his exposition of it to be pretty standard, and I'm frankly a little surprised at your take on this question, as it's different from what I was taught and what I've read in mainstream Christian writings like Lewis's.
"If God controls every moment of your life, do you have free will?"
God controls every moment of everyone's life, Lu-yours included.
But we do indeed have free will.
The thing is, God is so much greater than His Creation, us included, that His allowing us 'free will' has no effect on Him, but great effect on us.
Your head starts to hurt if you try to imagine 'free will' from God's point of view.
That is what happens when people argue that, if we have free will but God determines everything, then free will is an illusion because He controls every event.
Here's where a person of faith has a slight advantage-I trust that God is in charge, and I don't worry about 'free will'.
I'm not a robot, and God alone knows the outcome of every event of my life...and I'm fine with that.
That doesn't mean that I always do right, and can do no wrong-because I have free will sometimes I go against what God has set as His rules. But then, also of my free will, I repent and ask forgiveness.
God knew that I would both sin and repent, and allowed both.
In a way, I'm agreeing with old C.S. Let me add to what you quoted.
Because I know God, even if every trace of Him seems to have vanished, I trust by faith that He is still there. His "reality" isn't contingent on my vision or lack thereof-He would be just as real whether I existed or not.
Off to work for Doug-
God controls every moment of everyone's life, Lu-yours included.
God knew that I would both sin and repent, and allowed both.
Knowing and controlling aren't the same thing. In the model I mentioned earlier, God knows what choices we will make because with God all time is eternally present; but God doesn't make the choices for us, but, as you say, allows us to make them.
I owe you an apology, though: I have actually looked up Calvinist doctrine, and you are right that my understanding of Christian doctrine is not Calvinist. Apparently I am, or was, an Arminianist; who knew? Arminianism is a mainstream Christian doctrine, however;a I understand all Calvinists to be Christian, but not all Christians to be Calvinists. I suspect that we disagree on that.
Disagreements aside, I wish you a happy Easter.
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