Here's my premise: I am acting in LOVE if I warn pagans against impending Judgement. I would be hateful to hide Salvation from those who need it, especially those who don't think that they DO need it.
Of course, I have no idea who is not yet saved-everyone is an iceberg, living most of their lives below the surface.
So, in order to not miss anyone...
"16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3:16-21
20 comments:
The devil will tell you that
Christians and God hate you.
He might also have convinced you that neither he nor God exists.
False, deadly wrong.
One of my favorite maxims here at FDW:
"I would love to see hell empty and Heaven full."
I live that truth everyday.
"Believe or else" is such a winsome message, I don't know why you don't have hordes of the newly saved following you everywhere.
Hi Lu-your sarcasm shield is holding strong at 87%.
Nobody follows me.
All Christians follow Christ, and He
is making converts all of the time, irregardless of what I or any other Christian do or say.
Back to the post-if I didn't care about people going to hell, I wouldn't be following Christ-He is the one who sent us on the great Commission.
As usual, you are missing my point. You think the Great Commandment just means haranguing people about how wrong they are, which shows how much you know about love.
You're not going to get anyone to believe Christianity (or anything else) by telling them they'll go to hell if they don't, or even by telling them they'll go to heaven if they do. That's completely meaningless to anyone who doesn't believe in God or hell or heaven. If you tell people, if you show people, how God works in your own life, you might get them to listen (especially if you do some listening of your own). You know that story about footprints in the sand? Tell us about your walk along your beach. I have to admit it probably won't get me to believe, but it would sure be a more attractive message than the one you're pushing now.
more attractive message? Hope you don't mind if I don't accept your limited imperfect concept of the Great Commission.
Jesus said, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Make disciples, baptize them, teach them to observe what Christ has commanded. Pretty simple, right?
Again repeating myself also: It would be an unloving, evil person who knew people were going to hell but didn't warn them.
We're back to that closed door, Lu-If you were standing in front of a door, and I KNEW that certain death waited on the other side...I would warn you against that danger, because I wouldn't want you to die.
An uncaring sociopath would lie to you, tell you that the next room was full of your favorite things.
I know plenty about love, Lu.
Mt. 25:31-46. That's what love is.
but Lucia, the idea that man, being caring and loving enough, 'good enough' to avoid hell and make it to Heaven can't be what that passage in Matthew is about, as that would negate all the rest of Scripture and keep Christ off the cross.
If we are inherently 'good', He didn't need to die for our sins.
But if Man is inherently (inheritedly from Adam's fall)bad, we need a Savior.
OK, so what is that passage about? Maybe I am reading it too literally?
25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory" Second advent, when Christ returns to rule the earth.
25:31 "All the nations will be gathered before Him" though the Church had been taken up previously in the rapture before the beginning of the Tribulations, some peoples will come to Christ during the end times. These will be the sheep separated out from among the unbelieving nations, who join the rest of the church in inheriting "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" as we read in verse 34.
This sheep and goats judgement/separation is a one time event.
A literal interpretation is right, but notice that the discriminating factor for both the sheep and the goats is how they respond to Jesus, just like today.
Verse 40:
"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to me."
So you read it to say all the "sheep and goats" are already Christians, and those Christians are being judged at the final judgment.
Even granting all that, I can't read it any other way than contradicting justification by faith alone. You have to have faith (reading it your way) and you have to look out for the least of these.
Lu, I don't understand where you come up with some of your understandings.
Didn't say at all that the 'sheep and the goats' of Matthew 25 were all Christians.
You've heard mention of the "Rapture', the event when all Christians go to meet Christ,are taken off the face of the earth before the beginning of the "Great" Tribulation. Christ meets us in the air; He does not come all the way down to earth.
AFTER that event...there will be some who come to Christ and are saved during the Great Tribulation.
When Christ comes all the way back down to Earth to set up His Kingdom, one of His first acts is the separation of His sheep (Tribulation saints) away from the rest of the world. AKA: the goats.
"I can't read it any other way than contradicting justification by faith alone."
Can't...or won't?
Read it however pleases you, but it is clear to Christians. Those who are saved during the Tribulation will be no different than every other Christian who is justified by faith alone in Christ alone by Grace alone.
Have a good weekend, Lu-and a nice Mother's Day. In memory of my mother I will probably watch one of her favorite movies-usually she would not watch any movie more than once, except for "The Green Mile" and "Forrest Gump". So maybe one of those.
I've heard of the Rapture, and you're right that I misread your post beginning "When the Son of Man comes in His glory".
But let me go back to Mt. 25:31-46.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
In 41-46 Jesus dismisses the "cursed" who did not care for "the least of these."
I don't know any other way to read this than that helping people in need makes a person righteous, and failure to do so makes a person cursed. Note that nothing in this passage says anything about faith: each person either helped the needy or didn't, and those acts determined their fate.
"I don't know any other way to read this than that helping people in need makes a person righteous,and failure to do so makes a person cursed."
Repeating myself:
"but Lucia, the idea that man, being caring and loving enough, 'good enough' to avoid hell and make it to Heaven can't be what that passage in Matthew is about, as that would negate all the rest of Scripture and keep Christ off the cross.
If we are inherently 'good', He didn't need to die for our sins.
But if Man is inherently (inheritedly from Adam's fall)bad, we need a Savior."
If there were any other way to be righteous-that is, right before God, then Christ need not have gone to the cross.
If 'helping people in need makes a person righteous' then the opposite is true- hurting someone makes a person unrighteous. A person would go to hell because they hurt someone.
Are any of us such perfect saints that we have never hurt someone?
No.
Would it be fair to send someone to hell who hurt 27 someones but only helped 26 someones?
No.
We aren't graded on a curve, and according to Scripture:
"20Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins."
Ecclesiastes 7:20
and
"10as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
11There is none who understands,There is none who seeks for God;
12All have turned aside, together they have become useless;There is none who does good,There is not even one.”
Romans 3:10-12
That is why Christ, God Himself, had to come and live the perfect life and become the perfect sacrifice to pay for our sins. Because what is impossible for Man is possible with God.
This isn't the only passage that recommends works, with or without faith. See also James 2:14-16 and Revelation 20:12-13. (There are probably others.)
You once told me that you could veg out on your sofa for the rest of your life and you'd still be saved because you'd accepted Christ. You added that the Holy Spirit inside you wasn't about to let that happen, and would give you no peace until you put your faith into action. (Not the exact words, but the gist as I recall it.) So you could say that while justification is by faith alone, a faith with no action isn't a real one, because if you're saved you have the Holy Spirit inside you poking away at you to get up and do something already.
Circling back to your post: OK, so you've told me and anyone else reading it that we're doomed if we don't believe. This fails to move me one micron. Do you go on your way rejoicing, since you've demonstrated your love and fulfilled your daily duty and you get the satisfaction of knowing you're right and I'm wrong and I'll be sorry when I'm dead, or do you try another approach?
Hi Lu-you're mis-reading James. In no way does it suggest that 'works' apart from faith will save anyone.
"18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
Showing my faith by my works still points to God. The works are evidence of what? Faith. Faith in what? Human achievement? Righteousness? Is that how God measures Righteousness?
No-Jesus Christ is God's measurement of Righteousness. The fact that no one measures up to His standard is why we need His Grace and Salvation.
"you've told me and anyone else reading it that we're doomed if we don't believe. This fails to move me one micron."
"the satisfaction of knowing you're right and I'm wrong and I'll be sorry when I'm dead, or do you try another approach?"
Lu, I've said often enough that I don't want to see anyone go to hell. You know that.
There is no other approach. I cannot change the Gospel and lie to you, telling you that someone can be saved apart from the plan God has put in place.
My own mother and brother have died without God's Salvation-I assure you I will never be flippant or uncaring about those who go to hell.
John 6:28-29 does talk about proper works.
As far as works are concerned, I think I get what you're saying. Faith is the cause of salvation; works are a result of salvation.
Of course, as you know, I don't believe this, because I don't believe in salvation. I believe we got here by natural processes, we're born, we live a while, we die, we try to make sense of it all because that's a survival skill, and sometimes we see pattern where there is none.
Likewise, I don't believe in biblical inerrancy. If Jesus says in one place that all you have to do is believe, in another place that you have to love God and your neighbor, and in still another that it's all about feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, I don't need to reconcile that. (Notice, by the way, what loving your neighbor means in the parable of the Good Samaritan. It does not mean preaching at him; it's back to feeding and clothing and healing again.)
I don't dispute that by your lights God has eternal torment in store for me, nor that, that being the case, it's your duty to warn you. But, though I've wished I could be a Christian, it's never been because of fear of hellfire. Maybe it works differently for other people.
The breakthrough to faith usually comes when we get to the end of "I",
as In 'I can't or I won't' or 'I don't'...and look outside of ourselves.
Salvation is impossible for Man or Woman to accomplish on our own. We can never get there on our own, but the faith to believe is itself a gift from God.
I didn't believe. I tried living religiously. I failed.
I asked God for faith, and He delivered but guess what, Lu?
It is the hardest thing in the world to give up on your own efforts and trust in a God that you don't know. How He makes it happen-I have no idea. But while there is breath in the body, no one is beyond the reach of God.
I tried to believe, and I failed. I can't believe something that's not true. I do believe in healing the sick, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked. It won't get me brownie points, but it needs to be done.
Mind you, it could be false for me and still be true for you.
"Mind you, it could be false for me and still be true for you."
Really? Reality is that elastic?
"I tried to believe, and I failed."
If I might be so impolite, we always fail if we try to believe in God on OUR terms instead of asking God for the faith to believe.
That's what makes it a miracle when God does His work in our lives-because He can do what we cannot.
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