I'm looking into the appalling appellations affixed to the name 'Christian' by 'Others':
That Christians are hateful small-souled, twisted reprobates seeking to justify their hypocrisies by pointing to a book, much as a Hitler youth would point to "Mein Kampf", or a Muslim quoting the Koran whilst going about his particular brand of...Evangelism. Whatever fantasy floats your Ark, man.
Our buddies the non-Christians (Thank YOU very much!) presume to assume that every Christian's Bible only has two verses underlined: something about sending homosexuals to hell and...well, not sure of the other.
Self evident truth: Christians pretend to believe in a God they have made up so as to make themselves feel better about their sins and cover their {secret} ambition to lord it over the populace of non believers while filling their pockets with money and power.
Have I got that about right? The science denying part, of course, has to do with the fact that Evolution and Climate Change are the Dominant Truths of Reality.
Dear Others: all of the crimes against Humanity which you lay at the feet of Christians are actually your beefs with God. (Vegetarians may substitute 'complaints about' for 'beefs'.)
Your complaints aren't actually with Christians but with the God they represent, the One who does say nasty things about homosexuality and does reject the idea of Evolution. THAT God.
You are blaming the wicks for the fire and light which God has ignited in them.
"14“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;
15“nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16“Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16
"19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” John 3:19-21
23 comments:
Oh yeah-just after four in the morning, and I got up from a restless bed to get this stuff out of my system.
T'other day I was reading on FB a snide post about Noah and the Ark being a fable of God murdering nearly the entire world's populace because he is a mean, angry mythological god.
The point, then and now, is that this is a sinful world, and the Ark floated not only on water but also on God's Grace-we are here because God did NOT wipe us all out. That is Grace abounding all the more where sin did abound.
That is Love, friends.
Let me stipulate for the sake of argument that the Bible says homosexuality and abortion (that's the other verse) are bad. What else does the Bible say is bad? A short list off the top of my head: caring too much about money (Mt. 6:24), depraved indifference to other people's suffering (2 Sam. 12:3, Lk. 10:32, Lk. 16:19-31), divorce (Mt. 19:8), failure to love your neighbor in very concrete and specific ways (Mt. 25:31-46, Lk. 10:25-37).
As for evolution and climate change, well, God (stipulating f.t.s.o.a.) made me as I am: reality based. I also believe in the theories of gravity and heliocentrism, and the germ theory of disease, among others.
"What else does the Bible say is bad?"
Living your life as if Christ doesn't exist.
I can't say it often enough-we can't "figure out" God, we can't understand Him by any human reasoning. Attempts to do so lead to the gnoss in agnosticism:knowledge based on assumptions, judging God by human standards and then saying that He can't exist because "IT isn't logical."
Most of life is illogical-look at any Cubs fan still painting his face blue.
Look at every civilization which fails.
Look at war.
Look at the political party which supposedly advocates for human rights...while ignoring that Abortion (which they protect) destroys human lives.
If you're reality based, Lu, explain Abortion to me, how it is defensible.
We can only approach God through faith. Your lack of faith does not equate to a lack of God. That faith to believe only comes from God, it never originates in us.
But every day God makes that faith happen, and people are saved.
No-one is beyond the reach of God's Grace, Lu.
BTW-today I discovered that Wallmart DOES have everything-35 miles from home, going down an aisle and I found my sister. We went and put flowers on a grave and then shared a meal. It's been a good day.
If no one is beyond the reach of God's grace, why doesn't He just reach all of us?
Hi Lu-the short answer is that sin entered creation, evidence of which is found all around us. Here's where we have to take God at His word on faith-according to scripture, a plan of redemption was in place BEFORE creation happened. Sin entered creation and all that we know, all that we can see and feel and understand-all of it is fallen, was made imperfect. God set in motion His plan for redeeming a ruined creation, which you know happened at the cross when Christ,the perfect sacrifice, paid our 'sin debt' which we incurred by being into the family of Adam.
Why did He allow His creation to become corrupted? I have no idea. But as a part of creation, I am glad to be alive, even in this sinful condition.
This part hurts my brain a little, so please bear with me. Heaven wasn't created for our benefit,but it will be the perfect creation without sin/death/pain/suffering/politicians/lawyers that we would LOVE to enjoy right now. God is redeeming His creation, including mankind. If He had done so without creating hell and sending some people there,that would have been wonderful. But it is what it is.
As a finite, limited imperfect creature, I cannot judge God or His motives or His redemptive plan.
Here's an exchange from an interesting movie, allegedly true:
In "The Mothman Prophesies" a journalist is asking a professor about an entity which seems to be on the order of an angel or devil:
"John Klein: I think we can assume that these entities are more advanced than us. Why don't they just come right out and tell us what's on their minds?
Alexander Leek: You're more advanced than a cockroach, have you ever tried explaining yourself to one of them?"
Bad analogy, but God does say in Scripture:
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9
"It is what it is"? That's the best you can do? God (sftsoa) doesn't have to send anyone to Hell. If He chooses to do so, that's His prerogative -- as I've said before, there's not much point in being an omnipotent deity if you don't get to do whatever you want -- but He doesn't get to claim to be good. And He doesn't get a pass for being smarter or more complex or "higher" than we are, either. I don't get to pull the wings off flies just because I'm higher than they are. A four-year-old child could understand this.
God (sftsoa) doesn't have to send anyone to Hell.
Sure, that's your opinion, Lu. Valid to you, but it is only your opinion.
Your opinion is rejected by 2000 years of Christians who have been indwelt by the holy Spirit which teaches us to believe otherwise. This isn't some crazy theology that I came up with-it is at the core of belief as to the actual state of the world (corrupted-fallen from Grace) which made it necessary for God to put in place a plan of redemption.
I googled "sftsoa" and came up with Softsoap. I have no idea what that means.
But it is indeed what it is: we will always disagree about theology until one of us convinces the other that he/she is wrong. I don't mind.
sftsoa = stipulating for the sake of argument.
No one is beyond the reach of God's grace, you say. Implicit in that statement, and explicit in your latest comment, is that we have stepped outside God's grace (fallen, sinned), so grace has to reach us to pull us back in. So saying that God doesn't reach everyone because sin exists is just muddled: if sin didn't exist, grace (sftsoa) wouldn't have to reach, because we'd still be in it.
So why doesn't God just reach everyone? He could. He's omnipotent, remember? He can redeem us, or not redeem us, or destroy the universe a minute from now, or create a new heaven and a new earth, or make penguins fly. He can send the Holy Spirit (sftsoa) into the heart of every person on earth right now, change hate into love and dross into gold. But He chooses to send most of us (per Christian theology) to Hell instead. The very same people He created and allegedly loves.
I wish all of your questions were as easy to answer:
" is that we have stepped outside God's grace (fallen, sinned), so grace has to reach us to pull us back in."
Whether or not you accept it as fact, we Christians believe that our entire Creation fell at the time of Adam and Eve. So we haven't 'stepped out of grace'...we are born into sin, all the way back to Adam.
Do you recall what happened when God confronted Adam and Eve after the fall? They knew that they were naked, so they were hiding.
God prefigured the cross of Christ:
"21The LORD God made clothing out of skins for Adam and his wife, and He clothed them."
Animals died so that they could be clothed. In ancient Israel animal sacrifices were established by God so as to cover the sins of the people and by His Grace the people could continue to live.
Those sacrifices looked forward to Christ becoming the sacrifice for our sins.
As for "God just reach everyone?"-we've covered that before, even recently. God decided how He would redeem His sin-marred Creation, and it isn't something we get a vote on. The theological answer is that although God is omnipotent,He is also a Just/Pure God who cannot look on sin. Only a perfect sacrifice would satisfy His Justice, which is why God Himself, Jesus Christ had to come and live a perfect life and die a perfect death to satisfy the law a perfect God.
Lu, you probably won't appreciate this, but God's plan of Salvation is what it is, whether we like it or not. Why are only a remnant saved? I have no idea. But that remnant will inherit/live in a redeemed Creation without sin. Not a single tear will be cried- no war, no hate no troubles.
I'm tired, Lu-and I have to be at work again in 11 hours. Look me up on the facebook thing, and you can see more of my world. Have a good night.
God's plan of Salvation is what it is, whether we like it or not.
My point isn't that I don't like it (since I don't believe a word of it), it's that it's twisted and evil. I've said before that on the basis of Christian theology God can't claim to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, to which the Calvinist's response is, "No problem! I'm fine with just the first two, since I'm already one of the select elect." You worship a cruel, sadistic tyrant. That's your prerogative, of course, but I'm not about to join you.
A cruel sadistic tyrant who loved the world so much that he sent Christ down here to redeem His creation full of cruel, sadistic peoples?
Lucky for me and every other Christian, we know a God who defines Himself rather than the tyrant you imagine. That guy sounds sick.
loved the world so much that he sent Christ down here to redeem His creation
No, according to Calvinist theology, he sent Christ down here to redeem some small fraction of His (human) creation.
I've accused you unfairly, I think, of being indifferent to the suffering that this scheme will cause (or would cause if it were true). It's more like you're inviting me to become one of Saddam's palace guard, lest he otherwise torture and murder me and my family. The benefits are great, you tell me, a handsome salary, plenty of time off, parties every weekend. You really do want me to experience the good life, so you encourage me to work for a guy who tortures and murders people at the merest whim -- but that's OK, he's great as long as you stay on his good side!
Of course, Saddam was a real person who committed real atrocities. Your God is a figment of imagination. That makes it easier to turn down the imaginary goodies without fear of imaginary punishment, but I do wonder about a mind that imagines such a deity and calls it good.
"No, according to Calvinist theology, he sent Christ down here to redeem some small fraction of His (human) creation."
Wrong again, Lu. His Creation will be redeemed, freed from sin. Not just the 'fraction' of the people. All of Creation, everything you can see and know, from the wall in front of you to the farthest star that you can't see-ALL of Creation will be redeemed.
The small fraction?
"indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies." Genesis 22:17
There will be an incalculable number of people in that redeemed Creation.
Your concern isn't with the small fraction saved, but the greater fraction which will perish.
That is my concern, too. But we approach that fraction from different viewpoints-I try to share the Gospel, help people to know that there is Salvation possible.
You complain that it is unfair that any perish.
Lu, if God is a figment of my imagination, as you suggest that you believe...how twisted up inside I must be to imagine such an evil god! And of course, if I made him up, did I have a time machine handy to jet back 6,000 years to force Moses to act as my secretary? The millions of Christians since then...mass hysteria? We all made up God? And are willing to die for an invented god?
I wasn't around back then, but God, who is eternal, was.
Somebody around here doth protest too much.
Doug writes: "The millions of Christians since then...mass hysteria? "
That a belief is popular doesn't make it true. There are over a billion Muslims in the world, and at least a billion Catholics. I'm sure you think both groups are grossly mistaken in regards to their beliefs, don't you?
"And are willing to die for an invented god?"
A dozen men flew planes into the World Trade Center because of their certainty that Allah wanted them to do it.
I don't expect religious faith to die anytime soon, no matter how technologically advanced we become as a species. Despite fossils and carbon dating, folks still cling to the idea of a 6,000 year old Earth. Why bother with evidence when you have faith?
I'm not saying religion is altogether a bad thing. I just think it's neutral. It just is ... an expression of humanity's yearning for the transcendent (which may ... or may not ... actually exist).
More often than not, you can tell much about a man by his religion, and their god is often a projection of their own needs and wants and personality: a "father" figure, a bloodthirsty avenger and "righter of wrongs", a companion/friend ... sometimes a tyrant and control-freak.
Take a step back and read the Bible with your eyes open. It's a nightmare from beginning to end: the sanctioning of genocide, the poor treatment and regard of women who are seen as little more than pleasure receptacles for men, the slaughter of civilian women and children, the endorsement of human slavery. Even after "gentle Jesus" comes into the picture, the book ends with most of humanity being thrown into a fiery furnace. What sort of person WANTS all of this rubbish to be true? I can't get my head around it.
- James B
Hello James-"I can't get my head around it."
Exactly right.
" 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:6-8
James, you are incapable of understanding God.
"18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." 1 Cor 1:18-21
However, God seems to have you summed up pretty well.
You and yours who cannot understand God may be the majority, but please remember:
That a belief is popular doesn't make it true.
the greater fraction which will perish
I.e. the greater fraction that will not be redeemed; if you believe they'll be purged before the final redemption, that doesn't mean they don't count as part of creation. (What do you mean by "perish"? Do unbelievers merely die and stay dead, or do they suffer in eternal torment?) God, per Calvinist theology, chooses not to redeem most of humanity, for some reason beyond our understanding. (Recall that, per Calvinist theology, some of those humans are good people, but it doesn't matter. As far as God is concerned Mother Teresa = Hitler, if neither prays the magic prayer -- or if both do.) If He loses some people in the shuffle, He's not omniscient, if He can't save everyone, He's not omnipotent, and if He could but chooses not to, He's not good, much less infinitely merciful. (I'm not talking fair or unfair here. I'm talking good and bad. Mostly bad.)
I said God (Calvinist model) was a figment of imagination, not of yours specifically. As James points out, humanity has invented all sorts and conditions of God over the millennia. Everyone can pick the one(s) they like. You pick one that declines to redeem most of humanity, and you call it good.
"As far as God is concerned Mother Teresa = Hitler, if neither prays the magic prayer -- or if both do.)"
As I've said about 78 times in the past decade, only those whom God draws to Himself are saved.
Salvation is 0% man working and 100% God working. No magic, no magic prayer.
Obviously you don't like how God chooses whom to save, hate that not all are saved.
Complain and mock all you like, Lu-it won't change anything. But here's something to consider-God is omnipotent, and if He decides to save you, Lucia...then it will happen.
You keep mentioning Calvinism. One of the tenets of the faith is "Irresistible Grace".
I don' pretend to know the future, but I have 30 plus years experience watching God do some amazing things. Never say never.
Sloppy writing: to God Mother Teresa = Hitler if He decides to save neither of them, or if He decides to save both (which will result in their both not saying or saying the magic prayer). What I meant (as you know) is that per Calvinism a person's behavior during their time here below has zero to do with whether God chooses to save them. God could choose to save anyone, even me -- or, more precisely, God could have chosen to save me before time began.
Which brings me back to my point: before time began, God knew that He would damn more humans than He would save, that He would condemn the majority of this species that He specially created in His own image and allegedly loves to eternal torment. I am not complaining: remember, I don't believe a word of it. I am mystified that anyone could contemplate such a deity and call it good.
"What I meant (as you know) is that per Calvinism a person's behavior during their time here below has zero to do with whether God chooses to save them."
You're finally getting it, Lu-God didn't save me because I was anyone special, or because I had somehow 'earned it'. No one can please God on his or her merits.
"I am mystified that anyone could contemplate such a deity and call it good."
Aaannnddd once again, back to obfuscation. You will be mystified as long as you, a created being, attempt to judge God the creator. By which standards? The one's you've come up with. You and I, being lesser, cannot judge the morality of God by our own limited understanding.
God did create you. You only have a mind and body and existence because of His creating you. The fact that you continue to proclaim that He can't exist is that wonderful free will that He built into the system. You didn't get free will by evolving from microbes.
Job 33:4
"The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life."
Ah, yes, free will. I can choose not to believe in God, which makes it not His problem that He therefore sends me to hell. But there's just a wee imbalance of knowledge and power there, don't you think? (Not to mention, why did God create hell in the first place? Again, that was a choice that this allegedly infinitely merciful God made.)
And I come back to the fact that no one deserves eternal torment. No one. We don't deserve eternal bliss, but we don't deserve eternal torment either. I have done nothing to deserve such a fate. Nor have you, nor has Mother Teresa, nor has Hitler. I can see frying Hitler for a few centuries, but eternally? Five billion years from now, when the sun becomes a red giant and fries the earth to a crisp, Hitler will have no less days to scream in pain than when he'd first begun.
God extends Grace to you daily, Lu-proof is that you are alive and enjoying life. Whether you like the idea or not, this is God's Creation, and you are His creature just as I am. The difference is I know Him, and you, with your free will, do not.
God so loved Lu that He gave His only begotten son that she may not perish, but have eternal life.
What is true in John 3:16 for the whole world is true for each individual
person, as God saves us individually.
Why? Why does He bother? Because He wants to. Because He loves His Creation, including us.
Didn't you once write that God only loved the elect and didn't care about anyone else?
"Didn't you once write that God only loved the elect and didn't care about anyone else?"
Don't recall writing that. But Lu, we've been at this for a dozen years-my memory isn't THAT great!
"23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?" Ezekiel 18:23
"11“Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’" Ezekiel 33:11
We ALL need saving, Lu.
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