Monday, August 22, 2011

God Controls, Alters and Deletes

Just a genial conversation over malts about a Scripture reference. We didn't have Bibles open, so going on memory I was defending a point which I didn't remember correctly.
Though not stated, it was a question on the idea of 'Eternal Security'-whether or not a Christian could have his name blotted out of the Lamb's book of Life. In the book of Revelation there is mention of this, and, as I said, I got it wrong. My point was that from God's perspective, He knew who would or not be saved, as He was the one doing the saving. So talk of 'blotting out a name' was poetic language, not literal. When I got home I dug in to find the reference:

"4But you have a few there in Sardis who have kept their clothes unstained, so they will walk with me and will wear white clothes, because they are worthy. 
5Those who win the victory will be dressed in white clothes like them. And I will not erase their names from the book of life, but I will say they belong to me before my Father and before his angels. 
6Everyone who has ears should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches." Revelation 3:4-6

God was letting the saints in Sardis who had kept their clothes unstained know that they would walk with Him. He was assuring their security; they need not fear losing their salvation.
But note that Jesus was talking to the righteous in Sardis. He makes no such promise to those elements of the Sardis church who had not lived righteously. He didn't need to blot out their names from the book because they had never been written in.
If Christ caught up His church today, I would love it if my church were represented 100%...as far as I know we would be. But God sees hearts and knows who is or isn't saved. Sardis had "just a few". Hhmmmm.

6 comments:

Doug said...

I thought it was about time to shake up the display-books are a part of my life, so here we are.

Bill of Larsmont said...

Dear Doug,
I want to thank you for your post.

If I read it right, you indicate that only the "few" who kept their garments spotless were really ever true believers. This in your argument means everyone else who made up that church never believed or followed Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

I am posting the actual verses from Revelations 3 in the KJV. This will allow all who will to add their insight to this forum to keep on the same page.

Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Jesus wrote to a church that was made up of more then the "few who have not defiled their garments." Why would there be the warning to them to strengthen and repent as they are in the process of dying? He calls them to remember what they had already heard and previously RECEIVED.

Your Pastor indicated,that this passage did easily fit into a doctrinal box.

This church was made up of "wheat" and did include "tares" that the enemy sowed.

A sizable portion of this church that was in the process of dying. They were called to remember what they had RECEIVED and heard, and hold fast and repent. These believers were are in danger of having their names blotted out of "The Book of Life.

The tares appeared to be part of the church to man but not to Jesus who knows all men hearts. He was addressing and warning his church, more then the tares.

Man can not earn his salvation, it is a gift from God and not of works. That gift required acceptance by faith that is also a gift from God. It also requires a confession before men that Jesus is LORD. This confession moves from our meditations to our words and actions.
In this church many believers were ignoring God's Word by their own choce and actions. The terrible consequences their conflicting choices and actions placed them in danger of having their name blotted out of the "Book Of Life". This is not God's desire and therefore he here warns them to repent and follow.

As Jesus followers, we need to realize He expects us to be different and to be OVERCOMER'S in this World, walking in Faith and Obedience by His Holy Spirit's help.

Sincerely,
Bill from Larsmont

Doug said...

Hello Bill-in KJV or Nasb, it is still clear:
"I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God."
The 'wheat', the few clothed in unsullied garments would heed these words, and repent. The tares wouldn't heed these words, as the carnal mind is incapable of understanding the things of God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
"Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy."
This statement excludes the tares in that church-they had no such promise that they would walk with Him or wear white because they were worthy.

"If I read it right, you indicate that only the "few" who kept their garments spotless were really ever true believers."
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

"A sizable portion of this church that was in the process of dying." Tares
"They were called to remember what they had RECEIVED and heard, and hold fast and repent." Wheat.
The tares never received anything from God. Only the wheat COULD repent.

"These believers were are in danger of having their names blotted out of "The Book of Life."
No. These were the few saints in an unsaintly church, surrounded by false brethren. Jesus was encouraging them that they need not worry, that they were safe; in no circumstance would He ever blot their names out of the book of Life, even if most of their church was dead.
Bill, if you disagree, that's fine-I doubt that I could change your mind.
Look for a post soon about "Cessationist" vs "Non-cessationist"...just for fun.

Bill of Larsmont said...

Dear Doug,
To be in the process of dying means that they had to be alive at one time.
This church did not start as a dead church or it would have never been considered one of the 7 churches addressed as churches in Revelation.
Revelation chapter one includes them as one of the SEVEN.
Once they were alive and now they are dead or dying which means their was a negative change which Jesus warned them of which was leading to their destruction.
Not everyone had defiled their garments but all believers did have garments and evidently those that were dead or dying had defiled theirs. They were many in comparison to the few who hadn't.
This church had deteriorated more then the church of Ephesus and therefore their warning was sterner.
Sincerely,
Bill of Larsmont

Pastor Joe said...

Good discussion, guys! The warning passages of Scripture are always fertile ground for generating debates on the matters of electoin and eternal security. As a believer in these two historic doctrines, I see Rev. 3:1-6 posing first a Warning to the dead and dying (vv. 1-3) and second, a Promise to the faithful (vv. 4-6). Sardis was a church containing a majority of unregenerate people ("dead") and perhaps backsliders ("received and heard...ready to die"). These appear to be the intended recipients of Christ's command to "hold fast and repent" or else receive Christ's sudden coming in judgement "as a thief." I see the call to repentance applying to all the unsaved (who had "heard") as well as to any backslidden believers (who had "received").

Vv. 4-5 are primarily a series of promises to those who are faithful. I see this as the key to interpreting v. 5. Christ does not say he is plannning to blot anyone's name out of the Book of Life (record of the saved). So why would he mentioned blotting out names at all? Wouldn't this be understood to be a threat? I understand that, historically, city leaders, kings, etc. of that era kept records of good citizens and, for various reasons, might blot their names out of these record books. I see here that Christ is saying that He, unlike earthly kings, will never blot out the true citizens of His kingdom. It's a promise, not a threat or even a warning. Those who are truly Christ's never have to worry about being deleted (similiar to Christ's promise in John 10:28). The ones who should worry are the folks in vv. 1-3 who face imminent judgment by Christ (their presence in the Book of Life is not addressed one way or the other). Eternal security, in my view, remains unthreatened by this passage. Rather, the passage actually strengthens this doctrine even more.
In the end, the letter to Sardis, like several of the other letters to the churches of Asia Minor, contains both warnings to the faithless and promises to the faithful.
That's my 2 cents worth.

Doug said...

Hello Joe-thanks for the insight, worth more than two farthings. MacArthur said much the same in his study notes.
What subject has MacArthur taught on this week at Grace To You?
Election. He quotes Spurgeon as saying that the doctrine of election is the most hated, vilified and divisive of doctrines.There have been a few conversations here at FDW on the subject,(hint-some HATE the idea that God doesn't save everyone).
I must say that God is the only One who would Elect me for anything.